Link TARGET Attribute Enhancement

[randau]

I would like to use the Link Target attribute, but am
inhibited by the likelihood of a newly opened browser window
completely hiding the Parent browser window. Thus offering
the illusion that you're still in the same browser, but the
Back Button no longer works.

I've done some experimentation and came up with the
conclusion that Microsoft's IE browser has a relatively
small likelihood of that happening, but that Netscape's
browsers have a considerably higher likelihood of it
happening.

MICROSOFT BROWSER:
The Microsoft IE-6 browser opens new Target windows using
the Partial Screen window size of the Parent browser whether
or not the Parent is currently in Full Screen mode. The
only way this becomes a problem is if the Parent's Partial
Screen window size virtually covers the entire screen. That
is the user has, at some point, dragged the Partial Screen
window boundaries out to fill the entire screen.

NETSCAPE BROWSERS:
Netscape's browsers open new Target windows using the size
of the Parent browser or a Background browser immediately
beneath the Parent browser, if one exists. The likelihood
of either being Full Screen is relatively high.

WHY USE THE TARGET ATTRIBUTE:
Some reasons that I would like to use the Target attribute
are: I like having separate browser windows opened when
linking to a different web site or to information that's
made more useful by being able to view two windows at the
same time or swap between them. More often than not, you
don't think about opening a link in another window yourself
till after the fact. You don't always know whether or not
the link is to another web site. It may just be an internal
link. Then there's how many users that don't bother or even
know how to open links in new windows.

As much as I'd like to use the Target attribute in my web
site postings, I think I'll cease doing so, because of the
significant probability of some users being subjected to
full screen or virtually full screen browser windows
completely covering the parent browser. And, then being
under the illusion that they're still in the same browser,
but the Back Button no longer works.

ENHANCING THE LINK TARGET ATTRIBUTE:
I'd like to see the link Target attribute enhanced with some
way of controlling the Target window so that "when opened"
it cannot be Full Screen Size nor a Partial Screen Window
that virtually covers the whole screen. What the user does
with the size after it's opened is their prerogative.

Also, reuse of open Target windows should load the newly
linked web page in Foreground instead of Background which
now makes it appear as though nothing's happened. There
ought to be some option for bringing it to the Foreground
when loaded with a new web page.

--
randau
Oregon, USA

I read and post from the Google Groups web site using a Spam
collecting email address that I don't use for anything else.
So if someone wants to contact me, go to the bottom of my
Home page: http://www.proaxis.com/~randau2/home.htm

[Joel Shepherd]

Post by randau
Some reasons that I would like to use the Target attribute
are: I like having separate browser windows opened when
linking to a different web site ...

And what do your _visitors_ like?

Hint: if _you_ like having a separate window open, you can do that using
the browser of your choice. Check the documentation if you're not sure
how.

Your visitors who like having a separate window open can do the same, if
they like.

And your visitors who _don't_ want a separate window open can continue
using their browser just as they like ... as long as you don't use the
Target attribute at all.

Simple, isn't it?

[Adrienne]

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Joel Shepherd

Post by Joel Shepherd

Post by randau
Some reasons that I would like to use the Target attribute
are: I like having separate browser windows opened when linking to a
different web site ...

And what do your _visitors_ like?
Hint: if _you_ like having a separate window open, you can do that using
the browser of your choice. Check the documentation if you're not sure
how.
Your visitors who like having a separate window open can do the same, if
they like.
And your visitors who _don't_ want a separate window open can continue
using their browser just as they like ... as long as you don't use the
Target attribute at all.
Simple, isn't it?

I, for one, do not like links opened up in a separate window or tab. I use
mousegestures a lot, and so I rarely look up to see the state of the back
button. There I am, happily gesturing, and nothing happens. Then I look
up and <voice family="Homer Simpson">Doh!</voice> the back button is
disabled.

[Travis Newbury]

Post by Joel Shepherd

Post by randau
Some reasons that I would like to use the Target attribute
are: I like having separate browser windows opened when
linking to a different web site ...

And what do your _visitors_ like?

What if they liked it too? Would it be ok then?

Post by Joel Shepherd
Simple, isn't it?

Yea it actually is

[Arne]

Post by Travis Newbury

Post by Joel Shepherd

Post by randau
Some reasons that I would like to use the Target attribute
are: I like having separate browser windows opened when
linking to a different web site ...

And what do your _visitors_ like?

What if they liked it too? Would it be ok then?

You droppet the answer to that, when you cited the abowe:
"Your visitors who like having a separate window open can do the same,
if they like".

Going from site to thruu links I find, gets me ending up with a lot of
windows to close when I like to end my surfing. Opening in tabs or
just the same window for eatch site is just more simple.

Heck, don't people ever learn to use the "History" feature in the
browsers? No, because clueless "webbmasters" started to use "target"
even of they don't have a site with frameset.

[Travis Newbury]

Post by Arne
Going from site to thruu links I find, gets me ending up with a lot of
windows to close when I like to end my surfing. Opening in tabs or
just the same window for eatch site is just more simple.
Heck, don't people ever learn to use the "History" feature in the
browsers? No, because clueless "webbmasters" started to use "target"
even of they don't have a site with frameset.

You know, I never seem to have an issue with this no matter how much I
browse. Must be the sites i visit.

[Justin Wood (Callek)]

Post by Joel Shepherd

Post by randau
Some reasons that I would like to use the Target attribute
are: I like having separate browser windows opened when
linking to a different web site ...

And what do your _visitors_ like?
Hint: if _you_ like having a separate window open, you can do that using
the browser of your choice. Check the documentation if you're not sure
how.
Your visitors who like having a separate window open can do the same, if
they like.
And your visitors who _don't_ want a separate window open can continue
using their browser just as they like ... as long as you don't use the
Target attribute at all.
Simple, isn't it?

Just to re-iterate as well.

The Target attribute in HTML is deprecated, as is Frames entirely.

The only "legitimate" use of target (though not technically documented
as legitimate) is when using with an IFRAME, though imho IFRAME's should
not exist either as they defeat the purpose of "allowing a user to find
where they are" (which was why FRAMEs are deprecated).

unless you are creating a web-app leave window.open and target to no-one.

If you want all external links (at least on your own site) to open in a
new window [for yourself, _you_ cannot claim to know what _every_
visitor to your site wants at any given time] simple right-click on the
link and click "Open in new window".

To also add more information, with IE my |target="_blank"| pages open
fullscreen, it is a windows/[IE] setting to toggle this...do not ask me
where it is, been a long while since I had any use for IE outside of
windows update. [and occasional required activeX pages for my use].

Any further questions I would be glad to answer for you.

~Justin Wood (Callek)

[Travis Newbury]

Post by Justin Wood (Callek)
If you want all external links (at least on your own site) to open in a
new window [for yourself, _you_ cannot claim to know what _every_
visitor to your site wants at any given time] simple right-click on the
link and click "Open in new window".

I agree you can not know what all your visitors preferences are. But
what I disagree with is the fact that you think you need to. Opening a
new window, or targeting/reusing a window you have opened is an
essential part of web applications so it should never go away. But it
can also be useful in a website.

Personal opinion, no argument intended.

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Sun, 15 May 2005, Travis Newbury, seen in

disagree with is the fact that you think you need to. Opening a new
window, or targeting/reusing a window you have opened is an
essential part of web applications

"Essential"? It's going to have a hard time of it with the browser
settings that I use, then.

[Justin Wood (Callek)]

Post by Travis Newbury
I agree you can not know what all your visitors preferences are. But
what I disagree with is the fact that you think you need to. Opening a
new window, or targeting/reusing a window you have opened is an
essential part of web applications so it should never go away. But it
can also be useful in a website.

The question then is, "are you a web application"? if so, what makes
your piece of code "need to be new window".

If nothing other than "convienence" _please_ keep the href the same, and
simply do an |onclick="window.open(...);"| or some such, so that when
*I* want to open such a link in a new tab, it will let me, or if I want
to open it in a new window with my settings it will not break anything, etc.

As in I have found in some so-called professional web-apps, I see a link
I _know_ I want in a new window, I right-click, "Open in new window", it
does not work (due to some scripting policy with the page, usually
href="javascript:" type stuff) then I get frustrated, and normal-click
the link, and sigh when it actually opens in a new window, _that_ is
counter intuitive.

Not to mention the frustration if I wanted teh link in a new tab.

You do not need to know what your visitors preferences are is my point,
DO NOT PRETEND TO, simply leave the settings "normal" (as in, a click on
a link opens "local" to the page, same window, same frame if they are in
frames) if you are a web-app provide settings of some sort to allow a
_user_ to specifically change this if you feel you must, but do not do
it by default.

default should make all users able to do all things they want, open in
same page, or use their browsers mechanics to open in other means.

Personal Opinion, and one I do take personally,
~Justin Wood (Callek)

[Travis Newbury]

The question then is, "are you a web application"? if so, what makes your piece of code "need to be new window".

Completely depends on the application. One example we use all the time
is a web conference application with pop up features like a white board,
or slide annotation.

Remember, web applications don't have visitors, they have users.

[Justin Wood (Callek)]

Post by Travis Newbury

Post by Justin Wood (Callek)
The question then is, "are you a web application"? if so, what makes
your piece of code "need to be new window".

...

Post by Travis Newbury
Remember, web applications don't have visitors, they have users.

Well then let me prose this to you, are you following the recomendations
I put forth about keeping href="" to an actual page "which works" for
your pop-ups, *or* are you depriving your USERS from simple features
such as self-chosen "open in new tab" etc.

And as such, you should provide these users an option to turn off all
"new window" loads, [that your app does] (imho).

Though I feel we have gone waay off topic at least for the Mozilla
Newsgroup, and as such this is all I will post there. [I do not
subscribe to any of the other ones this message seems to go to, if it
does actually get passed through is beyond my comprehension]

~Justin Wood (Callek)

[Travis Newbury]

Post by Justin Wood (Callek)
And as such, you should provide these users an option to turn off all
"new window" loads, [that your app does] (imho).

You haven't a clue what a web based application is. It's not a web site.
It has nothing to do with accessibility, javascript, pop up windows,
using flash or any other personal preference you might have.

[Chris Morris]

Post by Travis Newbury

Post by Justin Wood (Callek)
And as such, you should provide these users an option to turn off
all "new window" loads, [that your app does] (imho).

You haven't a clue what a web based application is. It's not a web
site. It has nothing to do with accessibility, javascript, pop up
windows, using flash or any other personal preference you might have.

Really? Certainly in the UK, legislation would require a web based
application to be accessible in a large number of cases. As I
understand it US and European legislation is similar.

As someone who both writes and uses web based applications, I find it
very useful (as do the users) to be able to use the application in
various browsers+settings.

Conversely we've had numerous complaints about a bought in web
application that only works in a narrow range of browsers+settings.

Possibly working for an organisation that has five officially
installed browsers (one of which is officially supported) and who
knows how many different user-installed ones, on at least four
different operating systems (three officially supported to some
extent), gives me a different idea of the importance of making web
applications browser-independent.

[Harlan Messinger]

Post by Travis Newbury

Post by Justin Wood (Callek)
And as such, you should provide these users an option to turn off all
"new window" loads, [that your app does] (imho).

You haven't a clue what a web based application is. It's not a web site.
It has nothing to do with accessibility,

Why would you think accessibility is applicable only to web sites?

[Travis Newbury]

Post by Harlan Messinger

Post by Travis Newbury
You haven't a clue what a web based application is. It's not a web
site. It has nothing to do with accessibility,

Why would you think accessibility is applicable only to web sites?

I didn't say accessibility was only applicable to websites. Please
refer to my Yahoo radio example. That is a web application that has
specific requirements. If you want to use it you must meet the
requirements. The same is true for Most banks, all webcasting
applications and many others. Accessibility has nothing to do with it.

[Justin Wood (Callek)]

Post by Travis Newbury

Post by Harlan Messinger

Post by Travis Newbury
You haven't a clue what a web based application is. It's not a web
site. It has nothing to do with accessibility,

Why would you think accessibility is applicable only to web sites?

I didn't say accessibility was only applicable to websites. Please
refer to my Yahoo radio example. That is a web application that has
specific requirements. If you want to use it you must meet the
requirements. The same is true for Most banks, all webcasting
applications and many others. Accessibility has nothing to do with it.

Forcing Window.open and other "accessibility Problems" on people, is an
Accessibility problem, making "use" of it, is not, (if done correctly).

And yes, I do have much more than a clue what a web based application
is, I have done a few for internal consumption by companies, for data
processing/retrieval/useability senses... (Since employees were wished
to be able to work from home, as well as use their own computers in the
office if they liked, requiring an operating system and building
something in Cpp would have been overkill)

~Justin Wood (Callek)

[Travis Newbury]

Post by Justin Wood (Callek)

Post by Travis Newbury
I didn't say accessibility was only applicable to websites. Please
refer to my Yahoo radio example. That is a web application that has
specific requirements. If you want to use it you must meet the
requirements. The same is true for Most banks, all webcasting
applications and many others. Accessibility has nothing to do with it.

Forcing Window.open and other "accessibility Problems" on people, is an
Accessibility problem, making "use" of it, is not, (if done correctly).

An application must perform its job. If the desired functionality can
not be performed without a pop up window (or Flash, or javascript, or
enter your own accessibility killer here) then accessibility goes out
the window. It is an application the most important thing is that it
performs it's job. Accessibility has nothing to do with it.

Post by Justin Wood (Callek)
And yes, I do have much more than a clue what a web based application
is, I have done a few for internal consumption by companies, for data
processing/retrieval/useability senses...

You have created a web based data entry application. Fine, nothing in
your application requires any of these things. But, have you created
any web based medical applications that monitor systems in real time?
Where the Doctor/Nurse can pull up and arrange equipment monitors? Have
you created any simulation applications where the application simulates
a process based on the computer desktop? Have you created any
conferencing applications where they want to open a white board while on
a live conference? Have you created any SCORM based training?

Accessibility has nothing to do with any of these applications. With a
web application the important thing is that it works. And accessibility
has nothing to do with that.

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Thu, 19 May 2005, Travis Newbury, seen in

Post by Travis Newbury
An application must perform its job.

"Its job" presumably includes conformance with applicable national
legislation.

Post by Travis Newbury
If the desired functionality can not be performed without a pop up
window [...]

Then you'd better be ready to be a test case for disability
discrimination. Even more so if the use of this thing is part of
their employment.

The general principles will be the same across the EU, although the
national legislation may differ in some details.

[Justin Wood (Callek)]

...[Cite: Alan J. Flavell's comments]...

Post by Travis Newbury
You have created a web based data entry application. Fine, nothing in
your application requires any of these things. But, have you created
any web based medical applications that monitor systems in real time?

No, but a colleage did, and consulted me on the accessability issues,
the fact of life is on first use for a particular user what we did was
[This application utilizes some features which may be detrimental to
accessibility needs, you may modify those settings in an accessible way,
by either entering key combination "foo" to bring you to the
accessibility preferences pane, or simply entering the preferences
itself, and selecting "Accessibility Options"] (Of course I am not the
best UI person, so these words went through someone who's job it is for
UI wording and understanding.)

Post by Travis Newbury
Where the Doctor/Nurse can pull up and arrange equipment monitors?

The exact principle here eludes me, though I cannot say if my college
did this or not, but you make it sound like through the web-app the user
can move around the entire room.

Post by Travis Newbury
Have
you created any simulation applications where the application simulates
a process based on the computer desktop?

If you mean, chemistry related, physics, etc. then yes...graphical
included, But still without pop-ups, and with word descriptions to
suppliment the graphical representations...no need for the interface
being embedded in the flash, etc.

Post by Travis Newbury
Have you created any
conferencing applications where they want to open a white board while on
a live conference?

Unfortunately No, though I was part of a small team bidding on one. (And
yes this could have been accessible easily... Some parts could have
been harder such as if we needed handwriting recognition. But the
easier parts could have been acheived.

Post by Travis Newbury
Have you created any SCORM based training?

No.

Post by Travis Newbury
Accessibility has nothing to do with any of these applications. With a
web application the important thing is that it works. And accessibility
has nothing to do with that.

Perhaps not where you develop, but hearing your extensive arguments, I
feel VERY bad for those who contract your work.

~Justin Wood (Callek)

[Travis Newbury]

No, but a colleage did, and consulted me on the accessability issues...

You mean for all the blind/def/quadriplegic doctors and nurses?

The exact principle here eludes me, though I cannot say if my college
did this or not, but you make it sound like through the web-app the user
can move around the entire room.

Actually they did move from room to room with it, which is why it was a
web application running on a wireless network. But interface I am
speaking is broken into several small areas (up to 9 to be exact)
Clicking on any of them will bring up a detailed window of that
particular Patient. It is used by nurses as they make their rounds they
can still monitor everyone. Bringing up detailed information on any
patient while maintaining a view on everyone. We are currently working
on a similar web application that allows video monitoring of 9 different
tv channels in small windows. Clicking on any of the windows pops up a
larger more detailed window. (This is for large cable company)

Have you created any simulation applications where the application
simulates a process based on the computer desktop?

If you mean, chemistry related, physics, etc. then yes...graphical
included, But still without pop-ups, and with word descriptions to
suppliment the graphical representations...no need for the interface
being embedded in the flash, etc.

No, I mean a training simulation that mimics the users desk top.
Microsoft now has a practical exam for their certifications where you
have to physically perform some task. We created a web based training
simulation of the Windows environment. Please tell me how you can
simulate (real time) something like this without using something like
flash or java. ( We used Flash for these simulations.)

Have you created any conferencing applications where they want to open
a white board while on a live conference?

Unfortunately No, though I was part of a small team bidding on one. (And
yes this could have been accessible easily..

Ok, how can you have a web page that has live video on it and a
synchronized slide presentation. Then the person controlling the
conference wants to use a white board. He does not want to loose (or
re-buffer) the video so you can not lose the video window. How you do
suddenly make the whiteboard appear? (it can not be there all the time
as it would take up too much real estate

Some parts could have
been harder such as if we needed handwriting recognition.

That is irrelevant to the problem of making the whiteboard appear or
disappear on demand

Perhaps not where you develop, but hearing your extensive arguments, I
feel VERY bad for those who contract your work.

Why? Please explain how the functionality of any of the above
application can be achieved without using something that makes the
application and accessibility issue. People seek us out for our
applications and simulations.

[Toby Inkster]

Post by randau
I'd like to see the link Target attribute enhanced with some
way of controlling the Target window so that "when opened"
it cannot be Full Screen Size nor a Partial Screen Window
that virtually covers the whole screen.

Err... it can be:

<script type="text/javascript">
var h = screen.height * 3 / 5;
var w = screen.width * 3 / 5;
var winsettings = "height=" + h + ",width=" + w +
",scrolling,resizable,location,menubar,toolbar,status";
</script>

<a href="foo" target="_blank"
onclick="return !window.open(this.href,this.target,winsettings);">link</a>

Though I still don't recommend opening links in new windows on a normal
web page. I'll make an exception for "web applications", where sometimes
they can be handy, and you can expect the user to have a certain degree of
experience and training in using the application.